That being said I've suggested before that they be barred from Rsebos - that seems fair. I'd also not mind a /minor/ scan res reduction?

A separate script that has reduced range (Maybe 40% of normal) would probably make this a bit more balanced. 37.5km Scrams on T2 HIC is incredibly powerful, and actually stronger than best faction linked heating Lachesis, obviously HICs can't get reps like a Lach can but they still have huge buffers and they will be incredibly problematic for small gangs, especially those without links.

I think my biggest question is what roles do frigates and destroyers play with 37.5km scrams being common on cruisers?

I don't have many fitting for HICs, and so I just ran this one up in a minute. But it is glaringly obvious it will be overpowered even with a fit which I mocked up in a minute.

Fit.

I could have gone for an artillery broadsword, although due to the state of artillery I figured it is generally a pretty terrible choice. Although that is a minmatar specific problem. So you are correct the fit that I linked would be needing to operate at around 20km although would have loads of extra room to play with if it needs.

You can achieve a very similar result with the Onyx though;

[Onyx, Onyx PvP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

That would give you 582dps @ 30.4 km, or you could fit javelin ammo or use rapid lights or HMLs and hit way beyond that. The rest of the stats are very similar to the Broadsword.

Also I don't understand why you think these will be a "fat, sludgy brick.". They are comparable to any other cruiser. I'd use that description for a a battleship or BC but definitely not a HIC (particularly the shield tanked ones). It will be more like an 'agile fast brick'. And you have to bare in mind that these will stop you from activating a MWD at 37.5km which means they will generally have the range control in almost all encounters.

If these are as powerful as they seem then people will soon be skilled up to level 5 to fly them, and so I wouldn't consider that a balancing factor, and would certainly not be good to balance so heavily on SP from a game design perspective.

(Also I don't usually claim that stuff broken. The last two times I did flag up issues was when Rise announced the Garmur and during the Ishtar and drone dominance meta, on both of which I was right and I remember similar arguments being used by people arguing that the garmur would be fine. I wouldn't be flagging this one up either unless it was obviously horribly broken)

Ok fair enough I just double checked and they are fairly similar. I was thinking pre vanguard hurricanes, the recent buff to agility has obviously put them closer to HICs. That being said BCs and BSs are still going to suffer in the meta with these new super scramming HICs. If one ship has a 37.5km scram and the other one has a 9km scram then the one with 37.5km will dictate the engagement leaving the other ship with practically nothing they can do.

Battleships neuts don't reach that far which is why I suggested reducing the range of the scramming effect to 20km and then you'd be correct.

Also a lot of BS will not hit out to 37.5km, and even if they can they won't do enough damage to take down a HIC as they will lose DPS due to falloff. BCs are just completely screwed.

Hopefully you are starting to see the problem now.

I don't think people realise how strong it is to have extra scram range over your opponent. By using it defensively you basically get complete range control. A HIC with its MWD active will have the speed advantage over any other ship in the game when a scram is applied.

I don't think many in this thread are understanding this fact; every extra KM of scram range you give a ship means it is pushing more and more ships into a position where they are in a position where they cannot engage. At 37.5+km you have pushed the majority of ship in eve into this position as they cannot out damage a HIC at this distance.

I dont think it prevents you from using standard disruptors/scrams (havent tested). When you have a scram with the same range as a linked disruptor though, why waste the mid(s)?

You can also fit up to 6 infinite points. You'd have to sacrifice guns but if you wanted dedicated fleet tackle then I believe it is possible to run all 6 at once. The fitting requirements are not that high. That is also not including standard mid slot point and webs if you really wanted to go all out. So no idea what HandelsPharmi above was going on about.

You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles*

So you are flying in frigate gangs and you complain that BCs are an annoyance. Why should a BC not have some defence against a frigate gang. And it is relatively easy to counter that defence, fit a small nos to counter his neut, and use your signature to avoid his DPS.

Unless you are complaining that your kitey frigate gang cannot engage him risk free with a long point without him MJDing away, in which case I have even less sympathy.

My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.

But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.

I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.

I'd have went for "cloak", but those work too.

What you're doing YOLOing about in an unsupported combat recon is beyond me.